whswhs ([info]whswhs) wrote,

Games and metaphors

My players certainly are aware, and some other people may be as well, that I run games in a variety of different systems. My choices of which system to use for which game aren't always the obvious ones, and I've puzzled from time to time over what guides them. The way the choice immediately presents itself to me is that I often have an intuitive sense of "rightness" of the choice of a particular system for a particular setting and theme, which is hard to pin down to explicit criteria.

For example, I've tried three different universal engines that I find fairly reliable: Big Eyes Small Mouth, FUDGE, and GURPS. When I wanted to run a Tolkienian campaign in my last cycle, I picked BESM rather than either of the other two. In thinking about why, I got a more explicit idea that may be useful in thinking about games in general.

BESM has what might be called a core model of what's going on: If you're trying to decide whether a rule or a game mechanic makes sense, you can try to visualize the game events as a series of pictorial images that you might see in anime, and ask if the game rules produce the outcome and the flow of cause and effect that you would expect in anime. GURPS, in contrast, isn't designed around that core model. In GURPS, what you try to do is decide how things would happen in the real world, or in the-real-world-if-people-had-superpowers or the-real-world-if-magic-worked or whatever. GURPS reinforces this with the concept of "reality testing" and with the use of real units such as pounds, yards, and seconds, eschewing all game units such as game inches or encumbrance points. The reality testing of GURPS is testing against, well, physical reality; the "reality testing" of BESM is testing against anime reality.

Now, Tolkien was not an anime creator, of course; even Peter Jackson isn't an anime creator. But Tolkien was a very visual thinker, who liked to draw sketches of the landscapes and architecture of his world, and Jackson carried the same tendency even further. Tolkien's art often has tiny human (or elf, dwarf, or hobbit) figures tucked into corners in rather the style of East Asian landscapes. And even though he pays attention to things like food and baggage, Karen Wynn Fonstad had a hard time turning his statements into coherent distances and maps based on them. So the visual reality of BESM is a better fit to Middle-Earth than the strongly physical reality of GURPS.

It strikes me that other games might be looked at in similar terms, as each having a core model of how things work, that specific rules can be compared to to see how well they work. For example, the core model of Hero System is not a physical one but a tactical one: characters are tactical units that are supposed to be balanced against each other in tactical terms, to produce as even a match between opposing forces as possible and thus best allow players to test their skill in handling those forces. The core model of FUDGE is a narrative one: characters are defined in terms that could be used in a story, and the outcomes of their actions are supposed to be plausible elements in a narrative. The core model of Toon is of course classic Warner Brothers cartoons, a visual reality somewhat different from that of anime.

All of these are good fits to the things their core models are taken from. And if you're trying to run a game with that core model, the respective game will serve you well. But if you try to use a game for a fictional setting to which a different core model is a better fit, you can expect to be frustrated.

I don't know how universal an approach this is; I haven't tried it out on all the game engines I've used. But it interests me and it seems to give me a bit more of a handle on experiences I've had in picking the systems for various games.

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  • 29 comments

[info]jesselowe

November 26 2006, 05:11:24 UTC 5 years ago

This sounds interesting and potentially very useful. Thanks for posting it; I'll have to mull it over for a while.

Anonymous

November 26 2006, 11:15:17 UTC 5 years ago

I think you've touched on the reason I always found Vampire strangely off: it's present as a strongly narrative-based ("Storyteller") game, but actual play seemed mostly concerned with micromanagement of a number of finite resources: the blood pool, the humanity scale, willpower points, and health levels; that is, tactical concerns with no clear narrative interpretation.

-joel sammallahti

[info]kalyr

November 26 2006, 15:06:12 UTC 5 years ago

A lot of WW games seemed to emphasise style over content, so it's not a surprise that the rules are sold as one thing, but actually turn out to be another.

I've found Storyteller to be playable but uninspiring; not broken enough to be a game I refuse to play, but not something I'd have any interest in GMing.

[info]eris_rising

November 27 2006, 02:02:05 UTC 5 years ago

I found some of the later editions of Mage relatively freeform, but other than that, I'd have to generally agree. And this all reminds me that I really have to track down a copy of BESM, since I've heard so many rave reviews from you, Bill.

[info]kalyr

November 26 2006, 11:16:47 UTC 5 years ago

Interesting approach that makes a lot of sense. You definition of 'narrative' is very different from the Forgeite approach, though.

What would you say are the core models of D20 and Storyteller (which appear to be the most popular generic systems out there) D20 strikes me as very strongly tactical. Despite playing various incarnations of Storyteller quite a bit, I find I can't figure out what it's core metaphor is. I think it's trying to be a narrative one, but I don't think it does it nearly as well as Fudge does.

The complete lack of any consistant metaphor is probably the reason games like Deadlands don't work (at least for me).

-- Tim

[info]whswhs

November 26 2006, 15:29:55 UTC 5 years ago

I was talking about narrative, not about Narrativism. I haven't been able to get a grasp of Forgeite categories, and so I avoid using Forgeite terminology; but "narrative" is not a Forgeite category. It's a category of literary theory, and in fact there's an entire discipline, narratology, that's devoted to it. It's not clear to me that Narrativism has any relation to narrative as I understand it.

I can't comment in a very informed way on d20, or at least on Dungeons and Dragons, which I haven't played in well over a decade. I'm tempted to say that its core metaphor is that game rules have to make sense in terms of a video game progression of engaging in action, gaining points, and leveling up—except that in fact D&D seems to have invented that progression before video games used it! But really, someone who knows D&D better than I do would be better able to comment.

The root metaphor of the old World of Darkness seems to be one of people going through emotional and spiritual agony of some sort, and being set apart by it. All of the various WoD games have a central "you're fucked" game mechanic—rage, paradox, banality, and so on—that keeps the agony central to the game. Of course, this was done previously by Call of Cthulhu, with SAN loss. But WoD then goes on to make the agony a source of cool powers, which ideally are expressive of the nature of the character's specific agony. This is not so much a narrative as a dramatic metaphor.

[info]kalyr

November 26 2006, 16:12:20 UTC 5 years ago

I've never completely understood what Forgites mean by 'Narrativist', but the Forgeite-Narrativist games I've played replace a lot of mechanics to define character abilities with abstract metagame stuff to enable players to take control the narrative itself. I think they've got some good ideas, but some of them have a bad attitude towards traditional RPGs and their players, which harms their credibility. But I digress...

I suspect a lot of video games were strongly influenced by DnD, which explains the similarity. I last played it about a year ago, and it reminded me just why I don't play it any more.

As for the WOD, I always though that much of it was a metaphor for puberty :) Actually, much of the Storyteller I've played has been Adventure!, which isn't (IIRC) part of the World of Darkness. Without the "You're Fucked" mechanic, the system comes over a little bland, IMO.

[info]rboleyn

November 29 2006, 22:52:09 UTC 5 years ago

I think you're mostly right about D&D (and probably other d20 games), though there's another crucial element - resource management. D&D is very much about proper management of your resources, and many of its tactical elements revolve around this. OTOH, it's also very much about "how much damage can you do", and "killing monsters and taking their stuff".

I think D&D's probably a combination of video-game and war movie (the ones where logistics are an important consideration). More of the former than the latter these days, more of the latter than the former in earlier editions.

[info]trooper6

November 26 2006, 20:53:14 UTC 5 years ago

The funny thing for me is...I get frustrated with D&D because it doesn't give me the tactical choices that I want--and because characters get to be alternately powerful or powerless with not much in between.

In d20, there are no called shots to body parts. There are no defense rolls so if I'm on the other end of a hail of damage...I just have to take it. There aren't as many combat choices as I'm used to in GURPS. And many of the combat choices that exist don't become useful unless you are a fighter-type class (or a someone with sufficiently high strength).

Also, there is too much all or nothing. We're currently playing an Epic D&D game. I'm playing an epic Rogue/Master Thrower...which turns out not to have been a great choice. Because while I can do massive sneak attack damage...It only works against creatures with vitals. Against people I can sneak attack I do 1d3 + 10d6 damage (x2 because of doubletoss) 5 times in a round (av. 550hp damage)...and in addition to all of that damage, I would to 20pts of Strenght damage and then all the sneak attack damage happens again the next round...and my adversary can't do much about it. Against constructs, undead, etc...i.e. (most of our enemies). I do 1d3 damage only (av 20hp damage) and that isn't going to do anything against an Epic edversary. So I'm either dishing out insane amounts of damage or nothing...with nothing in between. Neither one is really all that fun for me.

And I just died last session...what happened? An Epic Mage casts one of the many save or die instantly spells...being a Rogue I don't have a good Fortitude save...I died instantly. I'll be ressurected, but I suspect I'll lose all the gear that made me somewhat competitive with the very overpowered classes that are Epic Spellcasters (like the ring of Improved Blinking that ensured I could do those sneak attacks in most conditions where a target could be sneak attacked while giving me some sort of defense against all those big spells being hurled).

I find the game mechanics to be very irritating.

[info]selenite

November 26 2006, 22:27:19 UTC 5 years ago

Another example--a "Feint" is only useful if I have near-zero chance of hitting with a regular attack. Clumsy opponents are immune anyway. So unless I take a fighter-type feat there's not much I can do to improve my character's odds of hitting.

Anonymous

November 27 2006, 16:21:19 UTC 5 years ago

You know, I came to a realization recently while running D&D. I don't think it's roleplaying. I think it's a related and superficially similar hobby or art, but it's not the same thing. One has to enjoy it from a different perspective. I'll try to look for a way to express this clearly.

-joel sammallahti

[info]robertprior

November 26 2006, 15:11:06 UTC 5 years ago

I hadn't thought of looking at the BESM rules that way. Intriguing. I'll have to give this more thought.

谢谢。
新宇

[info]neo_tanuki

November 26 2006, 17:54:29 UTC 5 years ago

I've personally found Pendragon to be one of the best games for modelling the kind of RPG experience the creators want the players to have. It's one of the few I've seen where the player's personality, character strengths and flaws have a mechanical rule that is very important to the game.

This mechanic is also enormously helpful in eliminating meta-gaming. For instance, a knight with a high Lustful stat who is tempted by a seductive Fae must roll to see if he can resist temptation, the player cannot just say, "Oh, it's a trap, I don't go." It may sound restrictive, but in my games worked extremely well.

[info]whswhs

November 27 2006, 05:42:31 UTC 5 years ago

Do you have a sense for what the core model is in Pendragon? I've thought of running a campaign in it; a concept of its narrative reference point might help.

[info]neo_tanuki

November 27 2006, 16:55:28 UTC 5 years ago

The versions of Pendragon I played used Chaosium's basic system (I think it's the same one they used in Call of Cthulu and RuneQuest) where most of your skill and combat rolls are made on a D20, trying to score lower than your skill number. Rolling the highest possible number without missing (for example, your skill is 17 and you roll a 17) is a critical success.

The Traits mechanic for Pendragon gave knights a list of opposing traits, for example Chaste/Lustful and Brave/Cowardly, with a numerical stat in each. As one trait goes up, its opposite goes down.

In situations where a player's stat affects his actions, the GM can require a roll against the appropriate trait. Having a very high stat in a trait can make a character notorious or famous, and having very high stats in several knightly virtues gives characters a bonus to Glory (Reputation).

GMs can also increase/decrease Traits in response to appropriate/inappropriate roleplay. They can also give Trait numbers to Passions (strong compulsions), Amors (a relationship with another person) or Hatreds that can require rolls if they affect play. While this can take some control away from a player, if they roleplay it well, the game mechanics offer rewards.

[info]whswhs

5 years ago

[info]neo_tanuki

5 years ago

[info]selenite

November 26 2006, 18:18:33 UTC 5 years ago

This is a good explanation of why I keep returning to GURPS after each time I dip into another system. Up to now I've just been pointing to the need for a decent return on all the books I've bought.

Meanwhile, my friends have sucked me into an Eberron game and I'm becoming very impressed with WOTC's ability to crank out books with at least one bit that enhances the PC I've got all these play-hours with. But there's no way I could stand running D&D 3.5.

[info]bluejogger

November 26 2006, 19:34:30 UTC 5 years ago

I've had a different tack on game systems. I feel I can play in any game system, so long as the GM and players agree on what is important to the game.

Because I've played very different games in the same system and what made the difference was how the GM interepted the rules and whether or not the players could accept it.

I played a wonderful game of White Wolf and it was a very dark comedy. The transformation of each of our character was originally meant to be tragedic, but the comedy of the situation kept coming out. The vampire who tried to muscle someone into being a vampire, screwed up and accidently truned the potential vampire into a new wraith. My character, practically guarenteed to be a werewolf (family history of werewolves), was buried alive and arose as a very confused vampire who kept trying to answer the call of the wolves only to be told, "Please go away, I know your heart is of a wolf, but you're just... icky."

So, we could have been very frustrated if some of us wanted to play a serious game of White Wolf, but instead, we all pretty much realize the comedic aspects early and went for it. Yes, we had to bend the rules quite a bit, werewolves had to accept that not all wyrm-taint was universally evil. Good vampires had to control their appetites. Overall, it was a very touchy-feely 90s type of game where everyone was accepted for what they did, not who they were.

However, as a general rule, you can't really go wrong with using the right tool for the job, but realize this works because everyone agrees what is being modeled by looking at the rule system.

Of course, I'd be hardpressed to run a serious World of Darkness out of a Toon book, but I bet if all my players really wanted to play a serious game of World of Darkness and the only rule system we could agree upon was Toon, I bet we could do it.

The opposite, from my experience, cannot be done. A bunch of players cannot agree on one game system (especially Hero) and all decide, ok, so we're going to run a tactical battle simulation. Some are going to be angsty roleplayers, some are going to be combat monsters, some are going to be builders/dealmakers, and some will be tacticans.

[info]whswhs

November 27 2006, 05:54:57 UTC 5 years ago

I don't really believe this idea of "you can use any engine to run any kind of campaign." I've run too many campaigns where the engine was an active source of frustration both for me and for my players, ranging from the relatively benign Space 1889 to the catastrophic Godlike.

One of Luce's Laws of Gaming said something like, "A good GM can run a campaign using any system. You can also drive nails with a wrench."

You may not take these sorts of things into account when deciding what engine to use for what campaign. I do. What I'm trying to do is make more explicit and more conscious the kind of thinking that's been going on subconsciously when I decided, for example, "I want to use Amber Diceless to run Zimiamvia." (Because the core model in Amber Diceless is of heroic figures who bestride the world like colossi and can defeat any ordinary mortal.) And I believe there are objective suitabilities and unsuitabilities of the approaches of certain games to certain settings and themes—just as, in writing, there is a difference between the almost right word and the right word. Choose the wrong engine and it will make playing the way you want to play harder, not easier.

Anonymous

November 27 2006, 03:57:27 UTC 5 years ago

Now that I think about it (and thanks for the inspiration), I see that Gygax's games share a common 'reality'. That being adventure reality. In particular the sort of adventure found in the fiction magazines of the 30s and 40s. Extraordinary people doing extraordinary things. Facing villains and perils certain to overwhelm lesser men, and through wit and wile overcoming said foes.

Original D&D had ordinary schmos gaining heroic qualitys. By Lejendary Adventures the PCs begin as heroes on a par with a Doc Savage or Tarzan. With the addition of games such as AD&D 1, AD&D 1.5 (the original Unearthed Arcana), and Dangerous Journeys we can see an improvemnt in character capablity, and in what the characters are expected to do.

Though other elements have entered the picture, even today D&D retains much of the pulp adventure feel of the original game. A tribute to the strength of the Colonel's original vision.

The question now is, what other RPGs foster pulp adventure reality?

[info]rboleyn

November 29 2006, 22:58:42 UTC 5 years ago

A current web favourite for pulp seems to be Savage Worlds. I've not read it, so I can't weigh in one way or the other on it. Besides, pulp's not really my thing - I think the only pulp themed game I ever played in used Hero. I was a decent game, and I think Hero was an okay choice of rules for that game.

[info]glenbarnett

November 28 2006, 01:46:31 UTC 5 years ago


I have come to think that questions that need to be asked of a game/campaign are:

- "What are the main activities to be undertaken by characters*?"
*(this can include NPCs)

- "Which of those activities should the mechanics support?"
(alternatively, "which activities can be handled without game mechanics?")

and then of a proposed game system:
- "How well does this game implement those activities?"
(may involve several criteria at once)

[info]starfyredragon

March 3 2007, 21:15:02 UTC 5 years ago

I probably don't know any of ya (but was just wandering around and found this) but my personal favorite system is Mutants & Masterminds. It's based loosely off of d20 (close enough where you can still use creatures from it and such), but it's much more character concept-oriented than just about any system I've seen. For the most part, if you have a character you want to play, you can play it. I personally find it one of the most pleasing systems to play in (but, alternatively, one of the tricker ones to use as a GM, as its much harder to anticipate the actions of the characters).

[info]chris_goodwin

June 11 2008, 22:11:00 UTC 3 years ago

Found my way back to this one.

You mention:

For example, the core model of Hero System is not a physical one but a tactical one: characters are tactical units that are supposed to be balanced against each other in tactical terms, to produce as even a match between opposing forces as possible and thus best allow players to test their skill in handling those forces.

I would say the core model for the Hero System was initially comic books, and later heroic fiction in general. The original Champions was pretty blatant about it being comics.

[info]whswhs

June 12 2008, 00:29:20 UTC 3 years ago

I disagree with this. The original Champions may have claimed to be inspired by comics, but it was utterly alien to comics in some important ways. In particular, it had no mechanism for qualitative improvisation of new abilities; if you wanted to be able to use your webs to blindfold a foe, you had to define "making a foe unable to see" as an ability, put in modifiers fitting its being a web-based ability, and perhaps put it into a Multipower or an Elemental—and so for every special-purpose application of your idiom. And it wasn't very good at handling even quantitative off-scale feats. You had to define what your character could do in excruciating detail at the outset, because of the effect-based character construction system. And every effect had a point value, which was based mostly on usefulness in a fight—note, for example, that professions cost almost nothing.

I've said for years that Champions was not a comic-book role-playing game; it was a wargame about superpowered combatants.

[info]chris_goodwin

June 12 2008, 01:55:16 UTC 3 years ago

Fourth edition and, especially, fifth edition (where the rules were unified and "improved") are very much like you say. Third edition Champions was a far different beast. The core books were full of specific advice about how the GM should do things a certain way because that's how they were done in the comics. And the notion of off-scale feats and power stunts? The basic Champions book knew it was incomplete, and it left lots of space for characters to do stunty things with their Powers. There were sections on performing surprise maneuvers and making creative use of Powers.

The notion that everything must be quantified is very much an artifact of fourth and fifth editions.

[info]whswhs

3 years ago

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